UK civil society meeting with UK World Bank Executive Director Gwen Hines
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Attendees
World Bank:
Gwen Hines, UK World Bank Executive Director
UK Government:
Steven Sabey, International Financial Institutions Department, DFID
Rachel Grant, International Financial Institutions Department, DFID
NGOs:
Preethi Sundaram, IPPF
Steve Lewis, Results
Laura Kerr, Results
Natasha Kennedy, Sightsavers
Daphne Jayasinghe, ActionAid
Polly Meeks, ADD International
Petra Kjell, Bretton Woods Project
Luiz Vieira, Bretton Woods Project
Agenda
- The Bank’s position on the erosion of external donor financing for social services and consequent push for reliance on domestic resources – as Kenya and Zambia;
- The Bank’s opinions about and expectation for the Finance for Development (FFD) conference in Addis Ababa, including its vision of its role in the process;
- What is the Bank’s reaction and approach to a shift in concessional lending away from middle-income countries, in light of the fact that 75% of poor people live in MICs;
- Reproductive health and the Global Financing Facility (GFF);
- International private finance – need to focus on quality of investments (development impact and sustainability) vs. primary focus on financial return and ensure transparency. E.g., PPPs/ increasing use of financial intermediaries.
- Nature of WB engagement with civil society partners – including arrangements for Spring and Annual meetings.
- Update on disability work in light of new Disability Advisor.
Meeting notes
Gwen Hines
- FFD is on official spring meetings agenda
- Other things include continuing discussions on Ebola, following a Brussels summit early March – linked to this is an idea for a new kind of pandemic financing facility, World Bank president Jim Yong Kim (JYK) and others are interested in exploring this, including Germany as G7 Presidency
- State of global economy discussions expected, following oil price shocks, but also copper and ore price shocks, plus Greece – probably in development committee lunch plus expect seminars
- Country roundtables, South Sudan worrying at the moment, big humanitarian crisis that could get worse
- Middle East, DFID and WB Yemen teams had to be evacuated – push to think more generally about Middle East, longer term instability thinking – expect events around this
- Linked to FFD, post 2015, COP in Paris – expected to be on the agenda or somewhere in the margins
- Committee of the Whole discussion on papers 17 March
- Ban Ki Moon likely to attend spring meetings
IPPF
- Update on gender strategy, had a positive meeting with Caren Grown and her team, update on timeline would be useful
- Global Financing Facility (GFF) on health, given Bank’s reproductive health action plan coming to an end in 2015, what will happen next, how can we ensure civil society is engaged with indicators that are fit for purpose
Gwen Hines
- Have 14 global practices and 5 cross cutting areas, discussion on the board about them bringing action plans and priorities to the board, but without making it too onerous – e.g. power points first
- Do regional updates every year, want to have these first, and then look how the global practices and cross cutting areas respond to these
- Meeting Caren regularly on gender, bilaterally and as board member
Rachel Grant
- Strategy concept note going to Bank board for approval end of month, number of countries identified for consultation
- Draft by May, go to the board in August, finalised by end of October – but timelines may slip
Gwen Hines
- Trying to get away from mechanistic approach to consultations
- Can’t do physical consultation in all countries, use more internet, on the ground where this doesn’t work that well- not sure exactly what it will look like
- Might suggest VC here, would rather they went to countries like Tanzania to sit down and talk about it
- Don’t want too linear an approach – need to be able to adjust to changes in circumstances
- WB Gender Advisory Council meets Spring and Annual Meetings – UK is part of this, also UN women, some finance ministers etc. Also Finance Ministers Community of Practice on Gender, to encourage integration.
- Trying to get links between cross cutting solutions area
- Trying to go for a web approach, identify priorities, where it is going well vs not going so well – what can be done on a country level, but not each country at the same level of detail
- GFF: not sure can answer questions on details yet. DFID’s Health Team is the lead on whether UK will finance, and technical details. They are looking if interested in morphing current health financing facility with WB into GFF – first thinking through what has DFID done in the past that has worked well, plus more global discussion, how can we accelerate progress on health MDGs. DFID’s Policy division will decide whether UK puts money into it.
- Looks more like a multi donor trust fund rather than WB project. WB board approves WB project funding. Not automatically involved in approving details of Financial Intermediary Funds housed at WB. Partly depends on where the money comes from. If there is WB money flowing into it, Board has a role. Still being discussed how it will work
- On Ebola, pandemic facility idea looking at whether insurance companies could help by insuring countries against pandemics like Ebola – JYK has brought people together, incl insurance companies, but still being discussed how it will work. Including investment needed to get countries to state of ‘readiness’ required for insurance model to work.
Results
- JYK said GFF will unlock IDA money, so not quite a trust fund
Gwen Hines
- Definitely an objective to do this, but nothing has been decided firmly how this will work
- IDA will always be sovereign lending to governments, having this funding alongside gives you more flexibility
- Hesitation as ahead of post 2015 agreement, lots of ideas out there, incl on Ebola – Tim Evans leads on this and Ebola, so been extremely busy.
Steven Sabey
- We’ve been careful on how we talk about leveraging funds from IDA. It doesn’t mean additional funds are provided, it means that funds will be diverted from other areas.
- Client driven, so many vertical funds that can tie countries’ hands
- Would like to see spending on health increase
Gwen Hines
- How to mobilise more domestic funding for health, getting more sophisticated debate in FFD on needs in country and how to finance them
- Not just about IDA, but lots of different sources, which you may or may not be able to leverage
- WB has done case studies to feed into FFD process, e.g. India needs ABC – what can be done with what financing
- Complicated financial engineering, e.g. Vietnam coming to top of IDA some years ago, could use some IDA funds to leverage MIGA
- Tax base: not looking for poor people to pay this, but there are others that could pay, so helping them increase tax base could help
- Not talking about cutting off funding for these countries, discussion about what to do with countries at the top of IDA – linked to graduation point, countries don’t get kicked out when they start reaching the threshold, but instead initiates a discussion about transition to IBRD, e.g. see India example with transition window
- Limited pot of cash, how do we best use it and allocate resources
- Poor people in MICs, live debate whether to base allocation of funds based on numbers of poor people or country’s poverty level. Want MICs to recognise that there are economic benefits to spending on health, poverty etc. Don’t automatically need cheaper money for these types of investments. If we gave IDA for MICs that would leave less for other poorer countries
Bretton Woods Project
- IMF and Ebola discussion, see articles in Lancet and BWP, where do you liaise with the Fund on these issues, linked to more transparent tax regime
Gwen Hines
- Benefit of FFD that it brings all these things together, not just a UN event, it’s an international event
- Various different work streams, cross MDB group, WB/IMF discussions, cross Whitehall group in UK
- Meet with UK IMF ED Steve Field every week on FFD – very joined up as UK
- How do you help countries to set up efficient tax systems, work stream following this up
- Push on transparency and illicit flows, how to get back stolen assets e.g. in Nigeria
- What changed things after Monterrey is that it got more complicated, private flows much bigger
- Lot of potential in pension and sovereign wealth funds, how to leverage them to invest in developing countries – would dwarf ODA – how to broker them together, IFC asset management trying to do this
- E.g. Global Infrastructure Facility trying to do more of this kind of thing, those willing to invest a percentage, unlocking money by packaging funds, can free up ODA for other things
Bretton Woods Project
- Bond FFD group concern, reliance of private sector flows and associated risks
- Decision on project financing should be on social impact, not financial return, also linked to PPPs
Gwen Hines
- I’m not the lead on FFD for the UK Government, Melinda Bohannon is
- Goes beyond WB/IMF – cross Whitehall process – my bit is where WB fits in
- JYK has said that if your ambition for development is linked to ODA the ambition is not very high, need to be realistic on what it can and can’t do – need to look at the totality of sources
- UK has to give 0.7, push for others within FFD to live up to their commitments
- If you want to graduate countries what will it take to get them off ODA, how do we help them to do it in a responsible way
- Need level playing field, e.g. UK sponsors legal help through AfDB
- How do you do quality control
- If you are a pension fund, you shouldn’t lose money, but how can you package this with something else that gives you a certain return
- But have to be clear on how to manage the risks, may need help with due diligence
- IFC triple bottom line, more conscious than the city, but not a development agency, hasn’t got cash injection like IDA
- MIGA can do more, double or triple their business, to sway someone to do a longer term investment
- No one thinks private sector is a panacea but it is here so why not use it, but use it intelligently
ADD International
- Welcomes new WB disability advisor, would like to know how the UK disability agenda links up, and how civil society can link in with this
- What you are doing to lobby WB to get in line with UK’s disability framework
Gwen Hines
- High priority for us, working closely with others in the policy division on this – still working out exactly what to do, but in the meantime aiming to do more
- Call out to the different practices and policy areas, when we see country strategies, I look at social inclusion sides
- Push on more data, need to make intelligent policies. New data group in WB trying to bring in people from around the Bank. Interested in new ways to get at least proxy data
- Link to wider inclusion agenda, e.g. regular discussions with LGBTI network
- Many like inclusion rather than breaking it down, making sure no one is left behind, which seems to work with board colleagues
Rachel Grant
- The Parliamentary Under Secretary of State had a meeting with Keith Hansen [Global Practices Vice President], to discuss the WB’s approach to inclusion;
- Disability focal points been identified, Charlotte V. McClain-Nhlapo is in place and taking forward the commitments on disability mentioned by Maninder Gill (World Bank Director) at the December launch of the DFID Disability Framework.
Steven Sabey
- The Bank is strengthening staff capacity on inclusion, important issue for us, determined to work with the Bank on this to ensure it gets followed through
- Question whether it would have a framework on its own, similar to ours, in a meaningful way – we are closely watching
Gwen Hines
- Me and my team holding the Bank accountable, also linking Bank team to people at the other end, with the country diagnostics – use feedback from DFID and country teams to get depth
Sightsavers
- Welcome the work on disability and steps taken to date
- What is the position on the Universal Accessibility and Inclusion Plan as an annex to ESS1 within the Safeguards, how open is the Bank, Maninder Gill outlined commitments at DFID in December– are there any policies we can focus on to look at country level
Gwen Hines
- Safeguards up in the air right now, waiting to see what comes out of the consultations – need to digest where things are at and how much it will support people with disabilities. Still need to work out how much should be included as part of the safeguards or addressed in a different way
- A few things have gone better than I expected, better discussions, but need to take stock
- Consultation has asked for more issues to be included
- Fear of safeguards becoming a tick box, then you don’t get positive stuff
- Working with different countries, not one approach, but want to do more – will know more in a bit
Steven Sabey
- Helpful to hear from you over next few months as Charlotte gets up to speed on disability issues
ActionAid
- On gender, Caren spoke about weaknesses and challenges of data gaps, hope the strategy will find more ways to collect the data
- Should focus on gender and unpaid care, still a massive gap
Gwen Hines
- Karen has brought huge academic background to this and new ideas
- Is asking the right questions on who to target, converts or ‘need to work on’
- One hesitation, want to ground these in reality, concerned that the analytical side gets carried away, but also need to implement it – that link needs to be made
- We try to do reality checks in countries, of course informed by data
- Fewer reports and more thinking about what it would look like would be great
- If you could fix child care, this would be one of the more important things we could do
Bretton Woods Project
- On FFD, where are the divisions between leaderships in advance of the conference
Gwen Hines
- Where could WB add value? We think as a convener between different institutions, e.g. to deal with demands for more funding for infrastructure
- JYK engaged in the cross UN process
- Has too many targets, many not pinned down, could use WB’s experience
- WB brings finance minister angle, UN led by foreign ministries, are often not in the developing countries where implementation is happening
- UN process gets very stuck in 1970s arguments, discussion on for example corruption and inequality not moving far enough
- What do you think WB should be doing?
Bretton Woods Project
- On convener, UN has governance structure, therefore leadership role should be restrained
- Concerns WB starts taking leadership in some areas, e.g. health which should be WHO, also on education, need to keep expertise separate – need to be careful about this
Gwen Hines
- Asked them to step up a bit more, worried that people would think they were taking over
- JYK has engaged trying to get over differences of opinions
- It’s not for WB or UN to dictate terms, it’s for the member states
- On education and health, a bit unfair, WB doesn’t just do finance, e.g. JYK knows just as much about health as someone in WHO
- Certain differences of opinion on education within WB, DFID – should expose and discuss properly
- Everyone gets carried away with averages, lots of debates to be had, but WB is not dictating the terms
Bretton Woods Project
- WB has a lot of good people, so does the IEG – but to what extent do these recommendations get picked up
- g. IEG was critical of the Doing Business report, but WB chose to not act on these
- Discussion to be had regarding expertise, staff caution about contravening management
- Bank is a financial institution, financial return vs social impact
Gwen Hines
- Financial concerns doesn’t dictate the terms, WB group is achieving a lot of results around the world
- As a board member we don’t always agree with the IEG – WB is guided by its shareholders and their views
- Different ways to interpret the evidence
- Shouldn’t rule out PPPs as a rule, I’ve seen it work
- IEG is a huge asset
Bretton Woods Project
- 2006 IEG report highly critical of the Bank’s research on development impact, appreciate it is old. Critic of Bank’s own approach to ‘evidence-based policies’ contained in report is also troubling in light of complaints that staff are afraid to challenge senior management.
Gwen Hines
- Staff comments in FT etc should be seen in context, from staff that are losing their jobs
- Everybody wants an organisation where you can be free to challenge
- Wants staff to have a stronger set of skills in terms of political economy, realities are different to what you think as you are on the ground
Bretton Woods Project
- In light of safeguards discussion, have been contacted in advance of spring meetings to be vetting event proposals, but there are more broad systemic issues regarding time frames, visas etc
- Remain concerned about CSO events in different venue to main events
- Issues around systems with consultations with CSOs
Gwen Hines
- Agree, would welcome blue skies thinking about this e.g. dedicated week for CSO engagement outside the Annual/Spring meetings. Current consultations during the week (that we join) are not a good experience for anyone. Time to think differently on how to do this
- My primary job is to deal with governors during that week so only limited time for CSO engagement that week
- Know you are frustrated, how to get away from mechanistic ways of consultations etc. Nature of debate hasn’t shifted since I last worked on the Bank 15 years ago
Sightsavers
- Also about meaningful engagement, tick box exercise leading to frustration
Gwen Hines
- There is a willingness to listen and to learn. Your ideas and views are being scrutinised, but will never be the only thing we look at
- One thing that surprises me, a real tendency to bring people from developing countries to tell about their projects. I care about this, but to spend 20 minutes listening to the story isn’t the best way to identify how to deal with the problem – feels almost exploitative on the groups, can’t give it justice
- Happening more and more in meetings, won’t listen more because these people are there
- Should also use time outside the meetings, e.g. talk directly to DFID’s teams as they are the ones telling me how to act
Bretton Woods Project
- Other complaint is that it’s information sharing, it’s about sequencing to be meaningful
Gwen Hines
- On the time frames, has to go through legal discussion etc, but didn’t realise until WB how the structure etc changes process
- I will become International Relations director at DFID as of this summer
- Melanie Robinson, current head of DFID in Ethiopia, will replace me sometime in the summer
